As Special Assistant for Strategic Personnel Development, Ulrike Frosch is familiar with the challenges faced by the University of Magdeburg in relation to academic personnel. Above all, the many fixed-term contracts of short duration come in for frequent criticism. So what is the university doing to counteract this? And is it nevertheless an attractive employer? Ulrike Frosch spoke to Dirk Alstein about this in the third episode of “Listening to the University”.

Our guest today

Our guest in episode 3 is Ulrike Frosch; she works as Special Assistant for Strategic Personnel Development and Appointment Management at the University of Magdeburg and provides support to young academics as they progress towards the rank of professor - dealing with the entire process from advertising a post to making a job offer and beyond.

*the audio file is only available in German

The Podcast to Read

Intro voiceover:  In die Uni reingehört. Der Podcast zur Arbeitswelt an der OVGU.

Dirk Alstein: And with that, a very warm welcome to another edition of our little podcast. I think we might now even describe it as a little series, since this is the third episode. My name is Dirk Alstein; I work in the Department of Media, Communication and Marketing here at the university and would like first of all to thank you, all of our listeners, for tuning in. We have received a lot of feedback, some of it even positive! That was especially pleasing. And we have even received some suggestions for future discussion topics. We have picked up on one of the suggestions for our topic today and will be asking: “Is the University an attractive employer?” So that is the subject that I would like to discuss with my guest. She works in the President’s Office as Special Assistant for Strategic Personnel Development and Appointment Management. A very warm welcome, Ulrike Frosch!

Ulrike Frosch: Hello! Thank you for letting me join you in the studio today!

Dirk Alstein: You’re very welcome! I had to read that out just now - I had to read it out before: Special Assistant for Strategic Personnel Development and Appointment Management. Forgive me, but I think I need you to quickly explain to me exactly what that means. In other words, what do you do?

Ulrike Frosch: I can do that. So, I have been based for about, yes, almost exactly, one year in the President’s Office under the Vice President for Academic Development and Financial Planning, and the post of Special Assistant for Strategic Personnel Development and Appointment Management revolves entirely around the process of appointing professors. In other words from the first request to advertise a professorship and the process of appointing the professors through to making suggestions for employee development for this target group. And that is my area of responsibility. To act in an advisory capacity for this process, to support it and to make suggestions.

Dirk Alstein: And this a relatively new posting. I think you said for the last eighteen months.

Ulrike Frosch: Exactly.

Dirk Alstein: Is the University an attractive employer? That is our subject today and before, perhaps, we attempt to answer this question specifically for our university, perhaps we should ask in general, what actually makes an employer attractive to a worker.

Ulrike Frosch: Yes, there are many different factors that actually make an employer attractive. There are also many studies that have examined the issue. And of course, primarily, there is the salary level or the type of employment contract. But the studies also show, among other things, that these are not actually the biggest influencing factors. Instead, further education and training opportunities, promotion prospects, the relationships within work with one’s colleagues, and so on, these often have a bigger influence on the choice of job than the actual job security. I remember a study that I read recently: Attractive Employers 2018. And job security came in 7th place there. And the first thing that was most important to people was further training and education, and in second place the associated promotion prospects.

Dirk Alstein: I would have expected that it would be the other way around, that security would be most important. But nevertheless, there is something that the university can do in this respect the staff are paid according to the tariff, it is possible to undertake further training and education courses, people are largely satisfied with their colleagues, with how they get on with one another. Nevertheless, there are certainly - especially in the academic field - often employment contracts that are uncertain and short-term meaning that there is pressure on top of the actual workload itself to acquire new projects in order to secure one’s own position. For example, one reader, sorry, listener - thank you - who is in exactly this situation says that in five and a half years she has had six different employment contracts. Everyone can surely understand that this is a stressful situation to be in. I would be interested to know; how does this even happen?

Ulrike Frosch: I think that first of all we need to look at the target group. We are talking about academics here, more or less mid-level faculty, scientific assistants. And in this regard one might say that the most important thing, so to speak, in this phase is qualifying. Yes, the academic system practically lives on change and to this extent for various reasons we often see fixed-term posts in this target group. On the one hand in order to create a qualifying post for a person or several people at this level and on the other hand, so to speak, in order to be able to complete short-term tasks. And this brings us precisely to this third-party funded area, that you mentioned earlier, where, however, the university in principle only has limited funds available to it for the completion of short-term activities. And that is why we have so many contracts of this nature.

Dirk Alstein: OK. But just suppose, I am a scientist and in a similar situation - been at the university for 5 years and had 6 different employment contracts and now need to speak to somebody about it. Are you the right point of contact? Or what kind of concerns do I need to have to be able to speak to you?

Ulrike Frosch: Yes, but first of all we definitely need to look at why the situation has arisen of so many contracts being strung together like that.

Dirk Alstein: It is an extreme case, right?

Ulrike Frosch: That does seem, more or less, to be an extreme case and probably has to do with the fixed-term nature of third-party funding, I would suspect. First and foremost, the first point of contact should be the direct superior, in all probability the professor with whom one should also, of course, agree prospects for professional qualification and development. Should that be problematic at any stage, then certainly the Human Resources department is a good point of contact for determining the possibilities and limitations. And to this end, something that works well in terms of advice for this target group, is the orientation and career advice programs, for example the Graduate Academy run by my colleague, Annette Hoeschen, who will be very pleased to help.

Dirk Alstein: OK, so off to Ms Hoeschen!

Ulrike Frosch: (Laughs)

Dirk Alstein: Or see the professor first...

Ulrike Frosch: ...the professor first...

Dirk Alstein: First to the professor and then at some point to Ms Hoeschen if no other progress is made. So earlier you gave a few reasons, understandable reasons, why academic contracts are often only fixed-term. It seems to be in the nature of things. Nevertheless, can the university do something about it? Does it want to? Is there any room for maneuver at all?

Ulrike Frosch: Yes, actually the university is already doing something. If we look at this extreme example of very frequent fixed-term contracts in such a short period of time, then the university has established framework conditions. There is, for example, a guideline for the arrangement of fixed-term employment within the university for scientific employees which, for example, recommends longer contract terms, so that the person can actually become qualified. The guideline states that at least 50% contracts should be awarded, in other words not quarter posts, which absolutely used to happen in the scientific context in the past, yes, and it also says that in the third-party funding sphere, the contract should always be awarded for the duration of the project, in other words for the period for which the third-party funding has been made available. So it does at least set certain standards as far as the definition of working conditions for fixed-term posts are concerned.

Another thing that occurs to me now is that we recently adopted a permanent position plan where, so to speak, the individual faculties were also asked to think about and identify permanent posts. This facilitates quite a long orientation period, where they can think about the posts that will become vacant over the next few years and how they can fill them with qualified, suitable talent. And if there is a permanent post plan of this kind, then usually it is followed by the next, where actually proposals are put forward by the HR department and are implemented in order to ensure that the person is qualified to fill the post as the need arises. In other words, a permanent post plan is not a stand-alone measure, instead a lot of other steps result from it. It raises awareness among the individuals wishing to fill permanent posts and encourages them to think about the human resources that they have in their departments and who they are in a position to upskill. And it also requires the Human Resources department to implement programs in this area. A really big sector that is currently developing in this context, is the area of knowledge management, practically the interface between management and the departments, which naturally also requires qualified young scientists to fill these posts, and for whom there is then of course the prospect of permanent posts being made available. Exactly. So you can see that the university is actually doing quite a lot in this area.

And we have also taken part in the Federal Government’s Tenure Program. The tenure track professorship is, so to speak, a professorship that starts out as a fixed-term appointment, but then through positive evaluation - a probationary period - leads directly within this period to a tenured professorship. And with this participation in the program, the university is taking the position where it says, “we want to implement a certain percentage of these professorships within the university.” Many professorships, which previously might have been advertised as assistant professorships, where it was just not clear what the next career steps would be after five years - a certain percentage of those have now become tenure professorships offering, of course, the option of an open-ended employment contract.

Dirk Alstein: You have, I think we said earlier, been a Special Assistant for 18 months now. But you have been at the university for 12 years altogether Is that right?

Ulrike Frosch: Yes, you’re right!

Dirk Alstein: That means, you could probably - even if you haven't been in this exact post for 12 years - but you might perhaps have seen a development in relation to fixed-term posts over a period of 10 years? Has the situation changed in this respect?

Ulrike Frosch: Ah, you don’t mean me personally, but in general...

Dirk Alstein: I just thought, that if you have been at the university for 12 years, then perhaps you might be able to say, ok, actually something has changed in that time, or essentially the problems might look different now, but fundamentally they are the same.

Ulrike Frosch: Exactly. So, I have made some personal observations that can also applied to the general situation. First and foremost, one could say that the third-party funding share of the budget has increased and overall there is less core funding available to the university. There are also temporary budgetary funds which again can only be used for fixed-term appointments, such as, for example, from the University Pact or BaföG funds. That too makes up a share of the funding. More and more has gone from the core funding and is directed to the university via temporary, fixed-term funds. There is, as I have just mentioned, a larger area that falls within the activities of knowledge management, that has significantly increased within recent years, since I have been working at the university, and is differentiating itself accordingly and becoming increasingly professionalized. And, of course, we have, another thing that I have noticed, an increase in administrative work for the scientists, for example, who are employed in project positions and who must do more administrative work themselves now. This share has also increased.

Dirk Alstein: And personally: do you have any experience with fixed-term contracts and was that experience positive or did you find it a stressful situation then, because you knew that your contract would run out at some point, you would have to sort things out yourself, or it was only renewed just before the end of the contract?

Ulrike Frosch: Yes, all of my employment contracts have been fixed-term. I had the good fortune to have good managers who always advised me very well, pointed out future prospects to me - also set me realistic limits - and who also directly recommended me for other positions or encouraged me to apply for other posts in the third-party funded area, for example. So, to that extent, I was actually lucky that I, in fact, only had a few gaps between individual contracts.

Dirk Alstein: We often speak about identification here at the university. And we are talking a lot just now about fixed-term contracts. Let’s suppose we were able to guarantee greater job security, would that necessarily actually lead to greater satisfaction and thus to a stronger attachment to the university, or, in your view, do other factors play a part? So, more job security, more satisfaction, greater or stronger attachment to the university?

Ulrike Frosch: A chain of causation cannot, I believe, be established, instead a number of different factors are involved. First and foremost, a person’s academic career development takes place, so to speak, during life’s “rush hour”. A whole host of other things are happening around the same time. Things like planning a family, house building, buying a home, that kind of thing. All of these are factors that can contribute to a degree of uncertainty where perhaps the perception of job insecurity can increase until it becomes problematic. That is on the one hand.

On the other, as I explained earlier, particularly with up-and-coming academics, we have a group here at the university that is primarily in the process of becoming better qualified. They are experts in an organization of experts that feel very strongly obligated to their scientific community or feel integrated in it and to that effect the university can be attractive, in that it provides the perfect conditions for this target group to enhance their qualifications. That means, basically, it offers the infrastructure, the support structures and the framework conditions. And, if these needs are met, then automatically there is a feeling of attachment to the university because anyone who feels comfortable here and actually has the opportunity to undertake research and teaching in the way that they imagined it, will also feel attached to the organization.

Dirk Alstein: Nowadays the university is, when it comes to recruiting personnel, in ever greater competition with companies like Google, I mean in general modern technological companies or brand-new start-ups. And whilst the latter might be associated with terms like young, dynamic, adventurous and willing to take risks, and with flexible working models, the university, in contrast, perhaps has the image of a public institution that may indeed be old and venerable, but also a bit shabby - when I...

Ulrike Frosch: (Laughs)

Dirk Alstein: ... what did I say? Shabby? Sedate.

Ulrike Frosch: (Laughs)

Dirk Alstein: Sedate! Of course I mean sedate. That was... I’m exaggerating a bit here, but I imagine high-ceilinged, light rooms in a start-up, with a football table in the middle and a basketball basket on the wall, whilst I - and as I said, this is a bit exaggerated - imagine that at the university there is perhaps one of those long corridors with lino on the floor and a time clock at the end. So my question is: do universities lag behind in comparison, or is it actually ok, and how can a university keep pace at all in such a market? Are the pictures that I just painted actually correct?

Ulrike Frosch:Yes and no. So, actually I really want to contradict that, shall we say. That was my first impulse.

Dirk Alstein: But there are time clocks!

Ulrike Frosch: Yes, but as I said, today we are talking above all about the group of up-and-coming scientists, and they are not affected by the time clock just yet. (Laughs)

Dirk Alstein: That’s true, but nevertheless, it is a mental picture that outsiders really do have. Actually, on an individual level I don’t really think that is the case but - and if we have to prevail in a marketplace like the university has to do nowadays; I believe the President also mentioned it in our first podcast -, then we have to face up to this competition and now I am actually wondering if we are really comparing like with like here or if other factors come into play or, if you really had to hold your ground, how is that possible as a university?

Ulrike Frosch: Yes, so to start with, I would have to disagree: since the university, of course, sets ideal framework conditions and has a lot to offer as far as so-called work-life balance is concerned, if I can really arrange my working hours very freely to a certain extent as a scientist, then that does give plenty of scope, it is possible to work from home, we are very family friendly - at least that is the feedback that I have from colleagues and also my own experience. So, on the one hand, there is perhaps that, as far as optimum conditions are concerned.

And on the other hand, to a certain extent small, innovative departments are absolutely comparable with such start-ups. If a young, highly-motivated professor with innovative ideas comes to the university and builds up and develops his or her own chair, then there is a lot of room for maneuver. To that extent I would definitely say there are parallels to be drawn. Nevertheless, we do, of course, also have long corridors with lino. But there too...

Dirk Alstein: ...we’re working on it...

Ulrike Frosch: ... quite a lot has happened in the last 10 years (laughs).

Dirk Alstein: That’s true. Right now in our building there is work going on. And a table football table will fit anywhere.

Ulrike Frosch: Exactly.

Dirk Alstein: And I think that the image of young, dynamic start-ups isn’t quite right to the extent that - and I stand to be corrected - there may indeed by flexible working models, but it does also mean that sometimes people have to work long into the night and for days on end.

Ulrike Frosch: Exactly.

Dirk Alstein: I’d like to talk about GEPSY again.

Ulrike Frosch: Yes.

Dirk Alstein: It is a big data capture project here at the university - ongoing, I think, until next year - to record and optimize - I’m reading it out again - work-related needs; just to make sure I don't say it wrong. That means, then, that the employees have been surveyed, via online questionnaires, to find out which factors contribute to job satisfaction and which cause stress. What conclusions have you been able to draw from it? I assume they are available to you. To what extent will the information feed into future human resource development plans?

Ulrike Frosch:This is a really good subject to address. We are actually only at the stage of transferring the results. Dr Wassmann is currently in the process of screening the results and also communicating with all of the participants that it is hoped will benefit from them. And the plan is, in fact, that the results will feed into the university’s human resource development plan for a wide variety of target groups, both in the academic sphere and for support staff. So, the starting point has been for all of these target groups to be surveyed. And if we can identify initial trends, then there is definitely room for improvement. As far as orientation programs, information on certain programs, for example, are concerned, and also identifying career paths and actually even the leadership in that respect from managers, so that these prospects are identified and there is also stronger leadership.

Dirk Alstein: To finish with, let’s turn to a little section called “Long story short!”, which means that I start three sentences, incomplete sentences, for you, which I would like you to complete. Ready?

Ulrike Frosch: Yes!

Dirk Alstein: 1st sentence: The university is an attractive employer because...

Ulrike Frosch: ...it offers excellent conditions and support structures for putting professional research and teaching into practice.

Dirk Alstein: Secondly: If I could change something about the human resource development at the university, then it would be...

Ulrike Frosch: ... being able to implement an across-the-board and continuous program for all target groups. But we are working on that. (Laughs)

Dirk Alstein: And thirdly, the last question: The biggest misconception regarding my work in Human Resource development is that...

Ulrike Frosch: ...I have to confess that I haven't really ever come across any major misunderstandings in my role. I have been in post for a year, and no...

Dirk Alstein: That’s ok. So I think, you are probably - I don't know, whether you are the only department or what, but that is good. You can clear misunderstandings up before they arise, or...

Ulrike Frosch: ...or perhaps everyone will get in touch now and say “Oh, I thought your role, your function, was completely different.” (laughs)

Dirk Alstein: Ms Frosch, thank you very much. That was it. Thank you to all of our listeners. And just another quick reminder: Please keep in mind that if you have any criticisms, suggestions or comments, you are welcome to send them in to And if you have any topics that you would like to suggest, or if would like to introduce yourself and your department, then it’s the same address.

There won’t be another edition of this podcast for the time being - but we will be starting again in February. We are taking a short break in January. Instead my colleague, Ina Götze, will be presenting our science podcast “Learn, when you want to”. We hope you will listen to us again next year. Until then, thank you very much and goodbye!

Ulrike Frosch: Thank you very much.

Intro voiceover: In die Uni reingehört. Der Podcast zur Arbeitswelt an der OVGU.